“I no longer believe a single word the Social Democrats say. Anything they say about what will happen is completely worthless. Absolutely worthless,” says Director Karolis Kaupinis, a member of the Cultural Protest Assembly initiative group”. Agnė Liubertaitė conducted this interview on the Lrytas portal, as chaos continues for several months due to the situation at the Ministry of Culture.
Although the Lithuanian Social Democratic Party (LSDP) finally decided on Friday to return to its original option and delegate party member Vaida Aleknavičienė as minister, the director insists that until she is appointed, he will not believe that the ruling party will not try to deceive the cultural community once again and foist Remigijus Žemaitaitis‘ Nemuno Aušra on it.
“This is a rotten shell of the Communist Party nomenclature, which has rotted away many times throughout the party’s history, and attempts have been made to cut off the rotten part, but it is always done too late and the gangrene spreads to the body,” Kaupinis did not spare the largest ruling party from his sharp criticism.
According to him, the detective story we have been following in recent days, involving the now-resigned Deputy Minister of Culture and his ties to Žemaitaitis, perfectly illustrates what the state is living for rather than what it should be living for.
“If Lithuania’s political landscape is empty, if Lithuania’s political landscape has absolutely no direction, then someone else will set that direction for us. Then someone else will tell us which direction to go. If we don’t know where we are going, then someone will hook us up to themselves and drag us where we don’t want to go. You probably understand what I mean,” said Kaupinis.
One of the most prominent voices of protest among cultural figures also spoke about the enormous damage already done to people working in the cultural sector, which will be extremely difficult to repair, and also talked about plans for the near future that should fundamentally change the direction of artistic life.
-At the end of November, it will be two months since the cultural community began protesting, at that time against the then Minister Ignas Adomavičius and the political exchange between the Social Democrats and Nemuno Aušra. However, cultural figures throughout Lithuania are still protesting in various forms. Let me ask you openly – aren’t you tired yet?
– No, we’re not tired. In fact, it has become significant to see how many people have joined us and that what we started is somehow consolidating and uniting people. We believe our actions have become meaningful both for us and for many others.
For some time, we may have been living with a feeling of helplessness, in which, on the one hand, we see separate elements of injustice, illogicality, inefficiency, and incompetence across various areas of the state. Still, because you live your life in which you somehow try to distance yourself, especially, it seems to me that people in culture and the arts often act in this way when they try to create their own world where they can live as they would like to – in principle, most creative work is like that.
And that September 22nd shook us up because it proved that, in principle, you can’t escape anything. In the end, it will come back to haunt you – if there is some injustice and you think that this injustice is not your concern, or there is something that is not working in the state, and you feel that it is fine, it works in my field, it spreads like an epidemic, and in the end, it spreads to you. And then everyone faces the question of personal responsibility.
In the field of culture, many of us have understood and felt this, and when it arises, a strong sense of meaning and direction in life also arises.
Fatigue can be physical —when you walk n kilometres, have a hundred meetings, or respond to 20,000 messages —but that’s not the kind of fatigue I’m talking about. It’s a pleasant fatigue. It passes quickly and motivates you to keep going.
– I wanted to ask if you expected all of this to grow into what we see today. But from what you’re saying, I can see that you did expect it?
– I did expect it. In fact, my work speaks to this – Nova Lituania (a film by Kaupinis, author’s note) was about this feeling. I had the sense that it was building up in the country and that, sooner or later, this boil would burst. I had this feeling a long time ago – back in July, when I was encouraging Paluckas to resign, I said the same thing from the stage about the fall from the heights.
And for me, the figure of Kazys Pakštas, walking through the corridors of the government and saying that a tragedy is coming, let’s do something – I had this feeling for a long time. Still, it was my personal feeling, and I didn’t always find an echo of it among the majority. But now I have succeeded.
– Today, news broke (we spoke on Friday afternoon, – author’s note) that the Social Democrats will nominate Seimas member Aleknavičienė as Minister of Culture. You are not only a director but also a political scientist – why, in your opinion, was there such a delay if this name had already been considered as the main option and had even passed the president’s filter?
– First of all, I no longer believe a single word the Social Democrats say. We will see what happens when it happens, and any words about what will happen are of absolutely no value to me. Zero.
This party and its leaders constantly lie, saying one thing and doing another, so I cannot trust them. A person who does not contradict themselves in their words and deeds is one of the fundamental principles of society that we should live by, so I cannot say anything about what will happen. I do not want to make any projections about what will happen until it has happened as a body, as a fact, as matter.
Why is it that this party behaves and acts in this way? Because this party has forgotten its roots, or perhaps it never had any. If you visit this party’s website, you will find the aforementioned social democracy of Steponas Kairys – that is, Lithuanian social democracy from the end of the 19th century, when the ideological directions of Lithuanian politics were being formed in the national movement. But this party has nothing in common with the Lithuanian social democracy of the interwar period or the early 20th century.
All it is a rotten shell of the Communist Party nomenclature, which has rotted away many times throughout the party’s history, and attempts have been made to cut off the rotten part. Still, it is always done too late, and the gangrene spreads to the body.
The first time was when the Lithuanian Communist Party separated from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, but each time it reverts to being the same Communist Party ruled by the nomenclature, whose fundamental desire is to benefit themselves. Not the common good.
And that is the fundamental problem with this party: when people who want to implement social democracy as an ideology take over its power and authority, maybe something will change.
As long as there are ten centres of power in this party, each acting for its own personal benefit, not communicating with each other, not agreeing with each other on what this party is about, it will continue to move like a completely random ball, bouncing around, incidentally, within the party itself.
-I will respond to your thoughts about not believing the Social Democrats’ word. If the Social Democrats in the party decide to delegate their candidate Aleknavičienė as minister, does that mean you are no longer so sure that she will ultimately become minister?
-I am not sure that she will become a minister, nor do I know what the political cabinet will be like, where they will again try to insert a deputy minister from Nemuno Aušra. I am not sure about anything yet.
-For a while, the issue of the Ministry of Culture was pushed aside during the search for a candidate for minister of national defence, and the prime minister herself said it is now a priority. However, this week, many were surprised by the appointment of three deputy ministers – although we no longer have one of them – and the prime minister suggested meeting with the ministry team being formed, but you refused. Was there really nothing to say?
-Of course, there was nothing to say. What could we say to deputy ministers, one of whom resigned after a couple of days? What and with whom could we talk about? With people who don’t make or accept any decisions whatsoever? Who are delegated by their respective political forces to implement some hidden agenda? What are we talking about here? Culture? The creation of Lithuanian culture: a strategy for the next 30 years —what are we constantly talking about?
When will this country finally have something that won’t change, something that all parties can agree on, regardless of ideology, so that they can sign and implement it consistently? And this applies not only to the field of culture, but also to Lithuania’s demographic policy, foreign policy, and economy. When will this Russian toy, Vanka-Vstanka, stop spinning and swinging back and forth?
This country must have certain principles that do not change – only then can it grow, strengthen, and prosper. Everything else is like a lottery machine that spins something out. We have such a policy, so what can we talk about when we meet with three deputy ministers, none of whom are part of any policy? Did we go to meet with those deputy ministers to pretend that it is normal for three deputy ministers to be appointed without a minister? This is absurd.
The proposal to do this comes from the prime minister, her reluctance to meet with us, the prime minister’s ignorance of what to say, the prime minister’s inability to explain why things are happening the way they are – there is nothing to talk about here. When there is something to talk about, when there is a constructive, clear cultural policy, then we can talk.
– And if you receive an invitation now, when the final candidate has been announced, will you go?
– I am no longer considering any “ifs.” I live in the present, and I believe the assembly holds a similar position. When it becomes a fact, it will be considered. Because too many promises have been made to the cultural sector, starting with Blinkevičiūtė promise to take care of this sector during the election campaign, when representatives of the cultural sector were invited, and it was said that culture would become a priority area and that the Social Democrats would take care of it.
You saw what Blinkevičiūtė promises were worth when she promised to become prime minister and returned to Brussels. She also promised not to enter into a coalition with Nemuno Aušra. This promise alone, made by the leader, even though there are ten leaders and they cannot agree on who the leaders are, is worthless.
There was not a single promise from that party that we could expect to be fulfilled. Not a single one. Not from the prime minister, not from Blinkevičiūtė, not from Sinkevičius, not from Paluckas. I could go on and on.
– One could sadly joke that Aleksandras Brokas has broken the record set by former minister Adomavičius, as he did not even last a single week in office. But it seemed that for a few days we were watching a detective story, wondering whether the deputy minister was really so independent. Brokas and Žemaitaitis were caught on several videos, at first he said he didn’t know him, then claimed that he had not said so, but that Nemuno Aušra had delegated him. Later, Žemaitaitis noted that the deputy ministers had been selected together in the coalition, while the prime minister said she did not even remember who had proposed Brokas. Putting all this together, can you explain what happened here and who is responsible?
-You have put together a perfect picture of what is going on here. It is not our job to interpret this detective story. This detective story perfectly illustrates what the state is living for instead of what it should be living for.
When the Social Democrats won the election and became the political force that forms the ruling majority, the Ministry of Culture should already have had a person who enjoys the trust of the cultural field and has a strategy for at least this term of the Seimas —our preference. I think the dream of many people is for politicians who have a plan for decades to come.
This is the ideal of politics, where the common good is more important than personal gain, and this should be the principle of state action.
When everything is reduced to the detective story we are talking about, we live as if in a Facebook algorithm, where, like a mayfly, we remember neither what happened yesterday nor what happened today. Such a state is doomed to collapse. A state where politics is conducted on such a principle will meet the same end as the first Republic of Lithuania did on June 15, 1940, because such a state is unprepared, does not understand, and does not think more than a day ahead.
It does not think about yesterday or the future – I am referring to the ruling majority and politicians. There are state institutions that do this, and specific fields do it very responsibly, but the ruling class in Lithuania currently has no direction, no strategy, no vision. It never had any. It went into the elections without any substance; it went in pretending it had something inside, but in reality, it is a balloon with nothing inside. There is pure emptiness.
If Lithuania’s political landscape is empty — if it has absolutely no direction —then someone else will set that direction for us. Then someone else will point us in that direction. If we do not know where we are going, then someone will hook us up to themselves and drag us where we do not want to go. You probably understand what I mean.
– But what is the recipe for changing this? Early elections?
-The solution, first and foremost, is for every Lithuanian to take responsibility for their country and its direction, as much as they can, according to their capabilities.
If a person sees injustice, lies, or something they cannot accept, it is time for that person to start solving the problem themselves, rather than waiting for someone else to solve it for them.
We must stop being a society of caretakers who identify endless problems at family gatherings and in conversations with friends and say, “Well, that’s how it is, it’s not good, it would be good if someone did something about it.” And that’s where it ends. We need to move from this kind of action to action that leads to solutions.
If a person is close to local government, they should go to local government and do things; if a person works in the media and sees injustice, they should take action and start exposing that injustice; if a person works in an institution where mobbing is taking place, they must stand up and fight against it. If a person works in an institution where there is chaos and anarchy, they must step up and become a leader to solve the problem. Each of us can do this and is responsible for our country. That is what a country is made of.
– Returning briefly to the now former Deputy Minister Brokas – he himself stated that he had signed a petition against the presence of Nemuno Aušra in the Ministry of Culture, he is also presented as a director – this means that you should be working in the same field, in the same spaces. Do you know this person? Perhaps you have crossed paths somewhere in the past.
-I had never heard of this person before his appointment as deputy minister. I have never encountered him.
– You announced on your Facebook page that you would be organising civil disobedience exercises on November 21, and on Friday, you announced a new rally. Please clarify whether these are the exercises or whether other actions are planned.
– When I announced that we would be organising civil disobedience exercises, I wasn’t just talking about November 21. The rally on November 21 is one part of the exercises. But the exercises will now take place continuously and for a long time, until Lithuania returns to everyday political life, leaving behind black technology politics and selfish politics and returning to politics based on values.
We will not give in to the prevailing politics in Lithuania, and we will encourage everyone across the country to do the same. We will do so actively—we will initiate, unite, and help.
There will be many exercises; they will be varied, and you will see them both in our various actions and initiatives. We will work with education, we will work with district mobilisation, and the Assembly will have multiple directions and will work for a long time.
– Can you give a few examples of what these initiatives will look like?
– As with the Social Democrats’ activities, it will be a fact, and then we will talk about it.
– It is possible that by the end of November, the minister of culture will already have been sworn in. Will all this lose its relevance?
– On November 21, if a minister is appointed, other fields will come together and identify other problems. Over the past two months, we have come to understand that Nemuno Aušra’s emergence in the Ministry of Culture is not a disease – it is a symptom, and the disease that has afflicted this country is much greater.
Eliminating the symptom — numbing it with an analgesic — will not cure the disease.
-An argument sometimes heard from those who disagree with your protests is that you are questioning the election results, the parties democratically elected by the people. How do you respond to such criticism?
-We have said from the very beginning that we take a value-based position and evaluate the party’s actions. A party that uses dirty tricks against its own citizens, a party that bribes its own citizens with trifles, promising to save them from systemic problems that have not been solved in Lithuania for a long time, a party that promotes hatred and the division of society, is not a regular player in the political arena.
It is a player that, through its actions, is destroying the democratic body and the democratic structure of the Lithuanian state. We are fighting against such actions; we disagree with such principles, and our involvement in this fight is actual democratic participation by citizens in the creation of the state.
-At one of the rallies, you said we need to talk to the people who voted for Nemuno Aušra. What should we say to them?
-First of all, we have to start listening to them. For us to talk to these people, they have to speak first. In my experience with people who vote for Nemuno Aušra, I usually have to sit and listen to quite an angry, quite aggressive speech for a long time.
Then they soften, start complaining, and open up about some long-standing grievances, and you realise that their anger is just the long-term result of some long-standing unresolved problems. First and foremost, it is about listening.
And we have already started listening by travelling to the regions. We will do so more and more intensively—we will travel to all areas and municipalities in Lithuania. Both we, as members of the initiative group, and the people of the assembly will hold meetings, give public lectures, hold consultations, and discuss local government issues with these people. We will go everywhere, talk to everyone, listen to everyone, and in this way, the dialogue will take place.
-We know that the cultural sector is also crucial to the president, and Nausėda has indeed criticised Nemuno Aušra on several occasions. Do you feel supported by the President’s Office? Do you receive official or unofficial invitations to talk?
-We had verbal support once, when we met with the president during the first week of protests. The president said, “Don’t stop.”
How did you interpret this encouragement?
-It means that we are on the right track.
– But so far, we haven’t heard any public words of support for the protesters from him.
– Do you hear the president saying words of support to anyone? Do you hear the president talking about state policy, direction, or strategy? What words have you heard from the president recently that would inspire you? Words that would show the state how to get out of this situation? You’re not answering me…
– It’s hard to remember specifically right now…
– That’s right.
– And would it be possible to assess somehow, calculate, what real damage has been done to the cultural community by working without a minister until now?
– People who have been working in the field of culture for many years and have faced many problems have nevertheless found meaning in their work and found a purpose within themselves, the motivation to achieve maximum goals with minimum resources, including financial ones.
Working in a field where there is never any clear strategy from the political side, where everything is changing, and where a great deal is left to the people who are the leading actors in this field, I mean both the bureaucrats in the ministry and the most significant damage we see now, that these people no longer have and cannot find meaning in their work.
This is the most critical damage, which will be very, very difficult to repair. A person who no longer finds meaning —a person without meaning in their life —finds it very difficult to stand up and regain their backbone.
Politicians do not understand this. They sometimes count in numbers, as the prime minister does, who seems to understand only one language – more numbers and fewer numbers.
But they do not understand this fundamental damage, which is now spreading like an epidemic, and not only in the Ministry of Culture. It is spreading throughout the entire cultural field, throughout Lithuania. Talk to the employees of the cultural centres in the Panevėžys district who are being laid off, only to find out the day before that they will be laid off and that the centres will be closed. They ask why; the mayor yells at them; and when the opposition asks why at the meeting, the mayor admits there is no explanation.
In other words, he has explanations, the party has explanations, but they won’t say. Why should I? Who are you that I should tell you? How do the employees of these cultural centres feel who worked, created, staged performances, transported choirs to the Song Festival for minimal pay, and rehearsed in an unheated hall? Ask them how they feel today. And you will learn what damage this policy is doing to Lithuanian culture. Call those people in Ramygala. In Krekenava.
– You talk about motivation. As soon as the whole commotion began in the cultural community, certain letters were circulated urging people to remain neutral and not to protest. It is undoubtedly more difficult for those who, as you say, live in smaller towns and regions to resist. You yourself urged them at the rally not to be afraid, to unite. How often do such cases of pressure occur?
– Every day. We hear about dozens of them every day from Lithuanian municipalities. We will support, defend, and encourage all these people, and we will help them legally through our contacts and partners. We will help them verbally, we will come, we will talk to them, we will help them create, we will find a strategy for them to act, and we will not abandon a single one of these people.
-It would probably be accurate to say that the Ministry of Culture has perhaps never received so much attention. Does this mean that from now on and throughout your term of office, you will be monitoring the activities of this ministry even more closely?
-We will not monitor—we will create a long-term cultural policy. We see that the political authorities are unable to do this and will not do it, but we will. We will develop a cultural strategy for Lithuania and a model for this field of activity so that it will never find itself in this situation again.
We will do this within three years, and our team is already working on it every day. Since we ourselves stood up to protest for our field, we will be the first to solve the problems that the government cannot.
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